Okay. Looks like the webinar has started. Ruth, you're here. I'm here. We've got people, you know, starting to to kind of dial in and join here.
Thank you, by the way, for being here. You know, really excited. You and I met at was it the first time just a few months ago with May? It first time we met, or did we meet before that?
I think that was the first time we had, like, a a formal back and forth at least. Right? But we've been in the same, you know, conference circuit for for a while.
Conference circuit. That's a good way of putting it. Well, look, you are the the head of procurement at Sword Health. You've been there for a couple years, but that also wasn't your first time being a head of procurement. You've done it multiple times at at this point.
Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, what's what's interesting is I think I've always been surprised about, like, maybe the overlap of spend independent of industry. But each one has had their unique challenges, their unique goals. So they're they're always a little different.
Yeah. And for me, one big challenge that I've run into, I don't know if this resonates with you at all, is that, you know, procurement isn't often understood. Right? Like, a lot of times you'll come in and there's a willingness to work with you, but maybe they don't know the right process to follow or maybe they don't even understand exactly what procurement is or or does.
No. I I totally agree, and that's that's actually one of the things I say is, like, I generally believe when it comes to things like noncompliance, it's usually for one of two reasons. And I think it's either, you know, bad education or bad training or bad process. Right? But it's not like it's not an unwillingness. In in my experience, it's usually not an unwillingness.
Yeah. I I've seen probably all different parts of the spectrum.
So but let let's let's go let's go to, you know, starting off at Sword Health.
What was kind of the environment you you were in at that point in time?
Yeah. So, I mean, this is a a perfect segue if you wanna talk about that process. Right? So, you know, coming into Sword, I I we had nine distinct financial systems. Right? So multiple ERPs, multiple intake.
And I and I kid you not, Michael, when someone said, hey, Ruth. I gotta buy something. How do I do that?
I had to ask four follow-up questions, things like, you know, new vendor or is it what's the payment method, stuff like that. And depending on their answer to each one of those questions, we'd have a unique, you know, permutation of how they should engage with our systems or our processes.
So when that's the complexity you got going on as a as a financial team, at that point, you know, you gotta, like, strategies off the table because you're just praying for baseline compliance. Right? And and even that is really hard to do without handholding because of how convoluted the process is.
No. That that I I just put yourself in their shoes. Right? So if they come to you and they're like, hey, Ruth.
What's the right way to buy something? Something? You're just like, well, it depends, and let me ask you four different questions. And then so they get one answer one time, and then they come back and like, oh, I wanna do this again.
What's the what's how do we do this again? And it's like a different answer the next time.
That sounds like a compliance nightmare. It's not because they don't want to, but it's just it's confusing.
And No.
And I I literally you know, because normally, what I'd have is, like, a flowchart of, like, okay. Here's from end to end, procure to pay, how this works.
And in that first, you know, few months in at Sword, what I had is I had a much smaller flowchart, and it was it was titled questions you care about as a stakeholder.
Oh, no.
Just those four things that was like, okay. Start request here. And that way, it was like, okay. I'm gonna just hide the back end from all of them until we kind of work through that. And, you know, we have we've been in a constant state of of financial transformation for two years just working through simplifying that for them.
Well, Well, I have to imagine for some stakeholders, you know, they they were willing to follow that map. For others, it created more confusion than clarification. So okay. So you have this kind of mountain of challenges as you as you stated, like, multiple ERP systems, you know, credit card systems, financial systems, etcetera. So so so where did you where did you start?
Well, when I when I come into these businesses, I'm given I'm first hire. Right? So so procurement as a function has never existed in in these companies. I think I feel a lot of pressure to right away take, you know, almost like a a a few kind of, like, case studies, if you will. I I jump at whatever the low hanging fruit is to get involved in a project, a contract, and immediately put some some value on the board. So that's, like, very tactical initially.
But outside of that, what I'm doing in the background is I'm essentially I'm I'm mapping how is how is financial data flowing throughout the company and understanding from a systems perspective, you know, where are we right now, and where do we need to go to make this intuitive and and delightful for our end users.
So just to be very clear, you you've done now head of procurement multiple times, and you don't just have a playbook that you bring with you every single time to say, hey. Great. Here we are, and now here's how we're gonna do procurement.
No. Absolutely not. Right? Like, you know, there's like I mentioned, there's overlap, and there's so there's there's things you can bring that it's like, okay.
There there's patterns between each one of these organizations. But, you know, each one, I think, outside of unique challenges, has different kind of goals for the function as well. Right? So here's kind of an example of, like, maybe the the high level, like, themes of of I've got it's kind of, like, three sort of, in my first six months, three sort of steps I'm taking that I think has been applicable to all three, of these organizations.
And the the first thing is when you enter the business for the first time, there's sort of, like, a natural segmentation that exists because you have everything that has historically accumulated already, their existing vendor relationships, their contracts, has done so without a process in place. So I call that, like, the disarray. Right? And then you have these channels in which new disarray is coming in, and that's anywhere commitments can be made and money can be spent. So the first kind of three things I'm doing is I'm I'm immediately plugging those channels, right, of like, okay. So at least we're stopping the accumulation of the disarray.
And then but that's not stopping the root cause. Right? That's not fixing the process. That's just, like, stopping the buildup so that it's, you know, less chasing of a movie target.
From there, you've got to address, okay. What's the root cause so that everything net new coming in is coming in in a way that that we want, that's compliant, that we have assurance of, you know, it's the confidence of the spend. And then I think usually the third and last thing you're working on is that historical remediation of, like, you know, what did exist and standardizing those agreements and making sure your data hygiene is is up to par. So that's, like, the the theme, if you will, but the way you achieve that with each of them is very different.
Yeah. It's interesting. So if we go back to your title that you that you chose for this, which I love, by the way, it's like year one is for breaking things. You know, the first thing that came to mind for me is, I remember a few years ago, more than a few years ago, but my first head of procurement role as a first procurement hire, and I did what you did not do.
I I I went the wrong approach where, you know, I came from a big Fortune one hundred company. Okay? And I had seen procurement work what I thought well there, and so I brought this, like, playbook with me to a tech company. So from manufacturing to tech, and I thought, okay.
Like, yeah, we're gonna go from zero to a hundred, like, overnight. This is proven success. And I did break things, but it was in a bad way. It was not it was not necessarily in a good way.
Like, in fact, like, sixty days into the proposal, was like, this isn't working or into the into my start, like, this is not working, you know, super well. I remember calling up some of my old mentors and, hey. What what am I doing wrong? And event and if and and sooner than later, I just said, hey.
This playbook doesn't work for this industry for whatever reason. I didn't quite know why, and I I tossed it out completely. But when you're saying, you know, year one is for breaking thing, I don't I don't think it's, like, you know, intentionally, like, you know, breaking things down. May maybe explain that a little bit for for the audience.
Yeah. I I mean, I think it's it's for challenging the of kind of what exists in the business today and and really honing in on, you know, the the unique goals of that business and how do I enable those goals. Right? And these businesses, at the point they hire me in, they there's certainly a desire for maturing the financial operation and and spend governance.
But you have to remember, they are still very much start ups. Right? Like, it's fast paced. It's, you know, there's a a requirement for urgency, for flexibility.
I mean, these are not things that people typically describe procurement with. I think you'd agree. Right?
Yeah.
So what I have to do is I have to design a system and a process that accommodates that so that our end users, you know, marketing, sales, engineering, whoever they are, can can continue to do what what they're hired to do, which is grow the business. And and that's very different than building something to just maintain a mature operation or inheriting something where everything is stable.
Yeah. The the thing that keeps coming to mind for me is what are their goals? That's what you're you're you're saying. Right?
It's like, hey. I'm not coming in here saying, hey. This is what I wanna accomplish. Right?
Or, hey. Like but you're you're you're first saying, okay. What are your goals? What are sales you know, what what were they hired to do?
What are they maybe they're struggling with? Like, what are their pain points or etcetera? How do I take this procurement function that's kind of in my head, but then craft it in a way that helps them not only, you know, solve, you know, like, the the the probably the things that would from a procurement perspective that we are interested in solving, but how do we help them solve, you know, their problems? Right?
And and and a good example that comes to me you know, comes to mind for me is, like, for example, if they have a supplier that maybe is, like, underperforming or or or, you know, struggling, like, how do we leverage the the the power of sourcing and the power of, you know, you know, procurement to help them solve that problem, which, by the way, the reason they have that supplier is to help them meet their needs. If they're in marketing, maybe it's to generate leads or whatever the case may be. Right? So that's what's kinda coming to mind for me.
But I don't think you're also suggesting that it's necessarily state of the art every single time. Right? If I hear you correctly, you're you're, like, you're asking those questions. You're doing discoveries.
That way, you're implementing a proven solution, but in a way that is scalable and unique for for for their unique problem set. Am I kinda summarizing correctly?
Absolutely. I was gonna say, you know, as an example of this, you know, the last company I worked for, they were in the fintech space. And in the almost four years that I was there, we actually never implemented a formal PO process. That was something, like you know?
And, again, from the perspective of best practice, you're you're hired in. You're build build a thing build procurement. That's something a lot of people would be like, okay. I need to get that place right away.
Yeah. But we would do the analysis every year.
And and the the control that a PO process would would bring to our environment never outweighed the complexity that it also was going to bring for that company at that moment in time. Right? Things like the the systems that it would require, the people, the main right? And and so every year, do the analysis.
Okay. Is is is this the year we hit that inflection point? And we just never did. So that's that's one thing that it's like, okay.
We're gonna leave that off the table for them. And, you know, I my the first the first company I ever did this for is b to b SaaS, and I remember coming in, Michael, with a bunch of templates for RFPs, RFIs, like you know? And and they were really good. They were built out.
I I was proud of them. And, you know, my my stakeholders were bringing me, okay. Let's let's look into our replacement for, you know, whatever it whatever commercial ops tool. Right?
And I'm like, alright. Well, here is the, RFI template I would like you to populate to send to these software vendors and and, you know, the looks on their face where it's just in our place. Okay. I gotta this is not, you know, this is not the vibe at this company, clearly.
And it's been a lot of learning since then about, you know, all the way, like I said, all the way to the, like, something, like, not even implementing a PO process. Right? Is that right for my business at this moment in time, and why isn't it in being able to kind of clearly articulate and and create a path that makes sense for them and their goals?
So you have all these components of procurement processes that potentially could work, and so you're not necessarily saying a PO process is a bad thing. What you're saying is that when you did the analysis, and I love that you did the analysis, you figured that for that company, a PO process may not be a good thing. Whereas, like, for another company that you're working for, maybe it would be a good thing. That reminds me of a story. I don't know if we I don't think I shared this one with you. So you know?
But when I my first company I worked for, e auctions were a big thing. In fact, I remember the the the chief procurement officer saying it's not an option. It's an e auction, meaning, like, it was, like, mandatory. Does that make sense?
And so, like, imagine that's ingrained in in me as a procurement person for for eight years. And so I come to this company, and and I didn't initially bring it. But one time, I was like, oh, why don't we do, you know, an e auction? And I remember them scratching their heads a little bit.
I know this will be fun. Let's do it. You know?
We we made it work, but it was so awkward, to be honest with you. Like, I've never done them again. And and by the way, that that's not to say that, like, for another organization, it it should not be done or it could not be done. It's for this particular organization.
It it it didn't work, and and it the analysis suggested that it didn't need to work. Does that make sense? So I I I I really love that, you know, you are taking this customized approach but doing it in a scalable way, but you're asking those questions and and then using the different tools in your in your, you know, tool chest to to solve their problems rather than assuming like, hey. This is the tool that we need. Really, really good.
You know, the analogy, someone I this is not my analogy. Someone had mentioned this to me, but that I think paints this picture so beautifully is, like, it's not a puzzle where you have all the pieces that fit to one right solution and you have to, like, slot them in. It's more like, you know, mosaic where you've got a lot of different elements that you can put together in many different shapes. Right?
And you gotta find what is the right shape for my company at at this moment in time. And that's the other thing I think I've I've learned doing this for a while is, like, this moment in time. Right? Because I the first time I did this, thought, oh, great.
We're gonna build this process, and it's gonna be in place. And, and then we're gonna coast. You know? And, no.
It's actually you know, it's a lot of it's like you build, it's in place, and then it's, you know, you're it's iterative, and these these environments are still so moving. They're, you know, doubling or tripling their revenue year over year. They're adding products. They're changing their their department structure.
They're acquiring company, whatever it is. And because of that, the nice beautiful thing that you had in place that was working for the last six months, you now have to revise. And it's like, okay. Now we gotta rework this for this version of the company.
So it's, you know, it's that that's also kind of what I meant for around breaking things. It's like, you gotta be somewhere long enough to see that, you know, the the the plan that you had already not working, right, and not functioning for the the new version of your business.
But that's why I love these environments because it really does keep you. It keeps you busy. It keeps you interested in in that sort of stuff.
And that's that's a really good takeaway because what I heard you say in your PO example was that you did the analysis. You determined, hey. POs don't make sense for this organization at this point in time because part of your story would say you would do that analysis again in a year. Right?
And then you came to that same conclusion. And by the way, the you probably did it, you know, the year after that. Right? And so my point is is, like, the business evolved, and there may come a point in time where all of a sudden you're like, oh, now it makes sense.
Let's do it, which which I think is a really important takeaway. And I I have to call Paul here. I think it's a great, you know, comment that he put in the chat. You know, it's like, hey.
Like, procurement is is, you know, translator. Like, I think a lot of times, especially, you know, Ruth, you know, you and me, when we come into a business we're the first procurement hire. We speak our procurement lingo, our procurement language. They may even, mean, know what a really purchase order is.
Does that make sense? And so how do we how do we, a, translate for them, not only for, like, what their needs are and how our tools can, like, help them achieve their needs, but then also, like, what is their language and how do we speak. You know? I I love this analogy of of of translation.
Really cool.
Yeah. I totally agree.
Let's let's shift gears just a little bit.
And there's a couple things I wanna I wanna get on. Time's quickly escaping us. Number one. So you come in clearly, like, a lot of different problems. You know, there's you know, I know there's this talk in procurement about strategic and and procurement.
Kinda like, where where do where do you focus initially given that, you know, the the the heavy workloads, the unlimited possibilities you could focus on?
Yeah. I think I well, I have to make sure, one, that I'm aligned with my executive team and whatever their goals are for the function. Right? Because that can be you know, in in the midst of the pandemic, it was cut costs.
Right? It was save money, and that's the number one thing. And I think it's soared. A lot of it has been around efficiency and what's our rep to order cycle time and how can we get things through the system, you know, quicker and cleaner.
So I'm aligning with the executive function. And then, at that point, I'm really just focusing on, simplification. Like, I mean, that's at the heart of, I think, a lot of what I do is I I really am just why does, you know, this work the way it works today, and where can we make it simpler for our end users?
And So so that way, you don't have to ask them when they say, how do you buy things? You don't have to ask them, well, it depends, and here's four different scenarios for you. Right?
A hundred percent. Right? And, like, this is the other thing about that I think, you know, if you're if you're kind of taking this one step further, I think a really well designed process should have control built into it. Right?
The system should be controlling. The system should be just by the nature of interacting with it, that is captured. That policy is followed. Right?
And when that's happening, when the system controls, it allows the procurement team to not be that that policy enforcer. Right? It frees them up, and it and I think it transforms them in the eyes of the business to okay. Now I'm not I'm not, you know, checking boxes or making sure people are attaching receipts or whatever it is.
Right?
I'm helping them identify solutions to their pressing issues. And then I'm I'm helping those solutions, you know, come to life and to the business by the nature of interacting with their team. So you evolve from being this, like, policy enforcer to, yeah, again, a strategic enabler by by the nature of setting up the system correctly.
And I think that's, you know, an important part of of doing this well.
I and when you mentioned the word simplification, I I thought of two two different things. Number one, I do think there there should be a way to kinda simplify the processes. But I also recognize that the buying process is complex and probably will be as a company grows and scales, maybe there's complexities added. But how do you change it so it doesn't feel, know, as complex?
Right? I think that's that's a strategic unlock there too. It's like, you write someone comes to How do buy things? You say, oh, great.
Go here and fill out this, you know, intake. Right? That that's a very simple now in the background, maybe this is a very complex process, but they don't need to under they don't need to know that it's super complex. Right?
It's it just it feels simple. So that's a that's a what came to mind for me when you were talking about it.
I agree. They they don't need to know, but it is nice every once in while to pull back the and, like, and educate too because it like, that's such a sweet joy. Right? Where it's like, oh, this feels great.
This is so simple. And I'm like, yeah. But look at this on the back. Isn't this crazy?
So Yeah.
And that's where those tools you know? Like, I I love going into Tropic and Tropic and and, like, hey. Like, it's simple to get it going, but then you can click on, like, hey. What actually has to happen behind it?
You're like, oh my gosh. Like, there's a lot going on. Like, don't don't worry. Like, I'm I'm your partner.
I'm gonna help you. But, yeah, it is it is complex. Right? Because I think that can delete some appreciation.
I I wanna get to during our pre meeting, you know, you were talking about having to operate in I think you described it as, like, a inefficient environment or or maybe you said inefficiencies in place.
What what did you mean by that?
Yeah. Yeah. So I think what we're we we what we were talking about was more around when, you know, we do webinars like this or go to conferences, it's always the the the dialogue is really like, okay. Problem statement, solution result, and it's so nice and buttoned up.
And right now, you know, we're all talking about automation and just look at this, and it's you have the problem, and I solved it. But, you know, Michael, my experience has been independent of the work environment I've been in. There will be things that, are just outside your control, and you've got to operate within that. And and even if you'd like, hey.
I know the solution to this. I know that this should be done differently for whatever number of reasons. It could just be out of your control, and you have to make that work anyway.
And an example, you know, of this at at Sword, so for for the two years that I've been at Sword, virtually the entire time, my CEO has personally, approved expenses at the ten thousand dollar threshold. And, yeah, thanks for the laugh.
Oh, it it makes me laugh. So I'm guessing you you tried to change that is is the bottom line.
Oh, yeah.
They don't need it's not a good use of your time. Like, there's so many logical reasons you can go to your c o and, hey. Like, risk, like, we're we're managing it. We're mitigating it. Like, you don't have to.
It'd save your time, but he but he or she still wants to look at it's you know, there's so the the positive side of this is it creates, I think, a culture of financial rigor in the bit.
So everyone knows that there's oversight in that way. So that's a pause for making our function easier. But the negatives are what you described where in collecting data, I mean, we can see that that this pushes the whole financial process back in a way that now everyone's inundated with volume. And when you're inundated with volume, you can't be those are hours you lose to be strategic. Right?
Yeah.
But the word bottleneck is coming to mind for me right after the A hundred percent.
And so, you know, that's something that I've wrestled with, you know, the entire the entire time. And at at moments, there's been wins where it pops up. It's it's actually at twenty five thousand dollars right now. So, you know, there's been wins, but, also, there's it and then, you know, a contract comes through and it's not scoped the way that we desire that was desired.
And so it's okay. It's back down to ten. Right? And you have to kind of just live in that and work with that knowing that, okay.
This is, you know, at the end of the day, it's it's his company, and I'm here to support his company. So what can my team do, and what what is in my power to still make this as functional as possible and as good of an experience for end users as possible with that limitation because it's gonna exist. You know?
Yeah. So I just wanna make sure that I'm I'm hearing you correctly. It's not misinterpreted because you tried to change, you know, the the the CEO's approval threshold. You tried to convince them that they need to do it.
So so to be very clear, like, it was an inefficiency you identified. It was a bottleneck. You tried to adjust it, and there are going to be things outside of your control. If I recall correctly, the CEO actually from the story in the pre meeting, the CEO actually temporarily brought it up to a certain amount, but then but then brought it right back down.
Right? And so you came to the conclusion that, hey.
I'm I'm not going to, or at least not at this point in time, to be able to shift it. So then how do I operate to the best that I can knowing that this inefficiency exists?
Exactly. Yeah. How how do you optimize given that structure? Right? Because that so you have to you have to just assume that's going to be a variable in play.
But the other thing you have to do, and I think this is important, is you you have to just not not settle, so to speak. Right? Like, at no point have I wavered from my perspective on this. That is it isn't effective for our business, as effective as it could be.
And I'm clear. Keep that line every time it does come up. That's honestly a little difficult to do because I'm a I'm a team player. I like to be optimistic.
And so it can kind of, I think, sometimes seem or come across as negative.
But but at the end of day, I'm I'm hired to be honest about making things efficient. Right? And and so I I wanna maintain that honesty that, nope. This is still not it.
And so it's that that delicate balance, right, of, okay. What can I control? I'm gonna optimize that to the best of my ability. And then I'm also going to maintain this could be better. And anytime I get a chance to, you know, try and influence the business to make it better, I'm gonna I'm gonna take that chance.
Yeah. But you also didn't com completely, like, you know, say, hey. I am not going to, you know, just absolve myself at this point. You know?
Does that make sense? Like, you still had success. You still created success with the limitation. So you're still maintaining.
You're still trying to shape, but you still had success. Where I think I've seen some people say, fine. If that's the case, then, like you know? And and they kind of, like, give up on that certain suspect or aspect.
So you still had success, and I think that that's that balance that you you're you're talking about there. Right. Cool.
So we got a few minutes left here.
As I talk to more and more procurement people, I think that it's increasingly more common where procurement leaders are finding themselves in a situation where they are the first hire or they're they're on a small team. You know, I think we're in this macroeconomic environment that we're in. There there is a focus on the bottom line. And maybe the business doesn't fully understand the true impact can procurement have, but there's enough of a pain point that they're willing to explore it. Right? But it's it's a it's a little bit of a different role, right, joining as maybe a a leader on an existing team and joining, you know, as a as a first procurement hire. So you've done this a few different times at this point.
May maybe, like, talk to me about those those kind of nuances that that that are important to go into it with kinda eyes wide open.
Yeah. Well, so just I I'll say at a high level, I I personally have found it much more easier to build from nothing, like, build from ground up than to inherit and rebuild.
Yeah. I've done I've done both. I agree with that a hundred percent. Yep.
No. No. It's I I I've done both, and I yeah. I remember one time I did come in.
They had an existing structure in place. And yeah. Like because not only then are they are they coming in from, like we don't know what procurement is. They're coming in from, hey.
We we kinda know what procurement is, and it's not working. So you have to fix it, and that's that's harder.
Yeah. And and so the second thing I'll say here is, like, when you're when you're building for the first time, okay. This is this hasn't even existed at the company before.
I think there's a lot more pressure to prove objective value, like, in in in the eyes of everyone really you're interacting with.
And maybe that's some of that self induced on my end, but certainly that's how it feels where if if people have had, you know, experiences with procurement at larger organizations, that's gonna be a very different experience than how you're going to experience, like, my process at, you know, these high growth technology companies because it it they're they're functionally providing different things for all the reasons we've talked about on this call. And so I have to almost kind of introduce them to, hey. This is the the new way of procurement or at least the way that it's working here at this company.
And like I said, for me, that's a lot of, like, maybe in its simplest terms, making their jobs easier. Right? Like, I I if we if we hired you to do a function, you're our technical team I mean, managing a purchase order or, like, figuring out how we invoice things or, that is a moment you are not doing the job that we hired you to do. Right?
And and this isn't super fun work.
So I really wanna come in, and I wanna make that I wanna take that sort of work completely off their plates so that by the end of, you know, my my tenure, people say, okay. My job is easier now because of this. Like and that's, I think, the power of a really well done procurement process. It affects it has the the capacity to affect everyone's job and and then make it easier, you know, and and and better to show up to work every day.
Yeah. I love that. When you make the focus about them and not about, like, hey. Here's what I need to accomplish.
Hey. It drives higher. You you all the byproducts, all the things that you want are buy are are byproducts rather than, like, the necessary outcome that you're kinda leading with. Does that make sense?
So compliance probably increasing. Spend under management probably increases. Your ability to have an impact to drive saving probably increases, but it's all because you're focused on, you know, solving their problems and and which then leads to leads to greater buying. K.
Love that. Ruth, you've you've been a integral part of the community for for several years now. What's kinda one last, like, parting thought as as you kind of, you know, have kind of been in the community. You've talked to a lot of people, and and what's one thing you just want you want people to know.
You want people to say, hey. This is important to me. And and and, you know, I think it'll help the community if if we kind of, you know, see more of this.
Good question. I always get stumped on these last ones, you know, because I I feel like I wanna make it, like, you know, powerful or whatever. But, look, I'll keep it I'll keep it kinda simple. And I I think the truth is, you know, to do this function really well, put your end users at the center.
And like I said, that that's going to lead to the outcome you want anyway, but it's also gonna lead to delightful engagement. And you need that delightful engagement, like, in this function, period. You you you depend on it. And if people don't wanna engage you, you can't really add value. It's you're gonna really struggle to do that. So put people at the center. If you do that, I think the rest will follow suit.
Yeah. I I don't know who said it, but I heard it one time where it's like, a good experience, a good buying process is going to be way more effective than any policy or or or written, you know, formula that you could potentially come up with. So okay. Well, Ruth, first off, thank you so much for joining today.
Once again, you know, I love getting to know you at a conference a little bit ago. Loved chatting with you today. If if if you're not connected with her, you absolutely should be. She's she's done this a few times.
She definitely knows what she's talking about. And and, Ruth, once again, thanks for joining today.
Thanks, Michael. Thanks for having me, and thanks for doing this for the community.
Absolutely. K. I'm sure we'll see each other soon. Bye. Bye.
